We’ve been fighting this fight for 30 to 40 years, and the problem never goes away....

Don't just talk about education. Don't just talk about eradication. Don't just talk about killing people like Escobar, who’s gonna be replaced by somebody else.

Let's talk about what would happen if we started addressing how to get the profit out of drugs.

>>> The Government Reform Committee of the US House of Representatives held a full hearing on 12 December 2002. Called "America's Heroin Crisis, Colombian Heroin and How We Can Improve Plan Colombia," it was, for the most part, the normal funding-boosting blather about increasing death and destruction being caused by more drugs, purer drugs, etc., etc.

Then something amazing happened. After an anonymous narcotics detective finished giving his prepared statement, Republican Representative Dan Burton--the head of the Committee--bemoaned the fact that the War on Drugs isn't working, hasn't worked, and apparently never will work. He then puts forth the idea that perhaps the situation can best be dealt with by taking profits out of illicit drugs. He won't say "legalization," but it's obvious that the only way to get the criminal element out of the drug trade is to make the drug trade legal.

Please understand that you are not about to read a forceful, logical argument for legalization. Burton is obviously ill-informed on the issue of illegal drugs and isn't familiar with the arguments (and counter-arguments) for various forms of drug-law reform.

His adversary in this impromptu debate, Tom Carr--director of the Baltimore-Washington High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area--is likewise clueless. His arguments for the current Prohibition range from muddled to absolutely absurd and surreal.

Watching these two spar is embarrassing. Basically, this is a discussion between two half-wits. What's so vitally important, though, is that one of the half-wits is starting to wake up. He doesn't know what the answers are, and he doesn't even know how to phrase the questions, but he has realized that the current course of action is pathetically unworkable. Luckily, this half-wit is a powerful US Congressman, and he has aired his thoughts in a congressional hearing with cameras rolling.

Government Reform Committee, US House of Representatives, 12 Dec 2002. "America's Heroin Crisis, Colombian Heroin and How We Can Improve Plan Colombia":

["Matt", an undercover narcotics detective in the Howard County, Maryland, Police Department, finishes his canned presentation.]

Senator Dan Burton, Chair of the Committee (Republican - Indiana): Thank you, detective, we really appreciate that. First of all, I wanna thank all of you, and I know you lay your lives on the line on a daily basis trying to deal with this crisis. I’ve been in public life, off and on, for about 35 years. I know I look a lot younger, but it’s 35 years. I’m glad you didn't laugh at that, cuz I [trails off].

But I wanna tell you something. I have been in probably a hundred, a hundred and fifty hearings like this at various times in my political career. And the story’s always the same.

This goes all the way back to the Sixties. You know, 35, 40 years ago. And every time I have a hearing, I hear that people who get hooked on heroin and cocaine become addicted and they very rarely get off of it. And the scourge expands and expands and expands.

And we have very fine law enforcement officers like you go out and fight the fight. And you see it grow and grow and grow, and you see these horrible tragedies occur.

But there’s no end to it.

And I see young guys driving around in tough areas of Indianapolis in cars that I know they can't afford. And I know where they’re getting their money. I mean, there’s no question. A kid can't be driving a brand-new Corvette when he lives in the inner city of Indianapolis in a ghetto. And you know that he’s gotta be making that money in some way that’s probably not legal and probably involves drugs.

Over 70 percent of all crime is drug-related. And you alluded to that today.

We saw on television recently Pablo Escobar gunned down, and everybody applauded that and said, "That's the end of the Medellín cartel.” But it wasn't the end. There’s still a cartel down there. They’re still all over the place. When you kill one, there's 10 or 20 or 50 waiting to take his place. You know why? It’s because of what you just said a minute ago, Mr. Carr and Mr. Marcocci.

And that is: There’s so much money to be made in it--there’s always gonna be another person in line to make that money.

And we go into drug eradication, and we go into rehabilitation, and we go into education, and we do all these things--and the drug problem continues to increase. And it continues to cost us not billions, but trillions of dollars. Trillions!

And we continue to build more and more prisons, and we put more and more people in jail, and we know that the crimes that they’re committing are related--most of the time--to drugs.

So I have one question I’d like to ask all of you, and I think this is a question that needs to be asked. I hate drugs. I hate people who have to--who succumb to the drug addiction, and I hate what it does to our society. It’s hit every one of us in our families or friends of ours.

But I have one question that nobody ever asks, and that’s this question: What would happen if there was no profit in drugs?

If there was no profit in drugs, what would happen?

I’d like for any of you to answer that.

If they couldn't make any money out of selling drugs, what would happen?

Tom Carr, director, Baltimore-Washington High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area: I would like to comment. If we took away all the illegal drugs today, we’re still gonna have a drug problem.

Burton: I understand that.

[crosstalk]

Carr: OK. The question is--what you’re arguing then is complete legalization.

Burton: No, I’m not arguing anything. I’m asking the question.

Because we’ve been fighting this fight for 30 to 40 years. [Carr starts to speak.] No, no let me finish. We’ve been fighting this fight for 30 to 40 years, and the problem never goes away.

New generations, younger and younger people get hooked on drugs. Kids in grade schools are getting hooked on drugs. Their lives are ruined. They’re going to jail. They’re becoming prostitutes and drug pushers because they have to make money to feed their habit, and these, these horrible drug dealers, many of whom aren’t using drugs, they’ll send free drugs into schools and schoolyards and everything else to hook these kids. And the problem increases and increases and increases. And nobody ever asks this question, and I’m not inferring anything cuz I hate drugs. I hate the use of it. I hate what it’s done to our society.

But the question needs to be addressed at some point: What would happen if they don’t make any money out of it?

Carr: I don’t think you can create a situation where no one makes any money out of it. There’s always gonna be a black market. I don’t think the American public is gonna say, Ok, well, drugs don’t cost anything, but only 18-year-olds can have it? Or 18 and above? Then you have a black market for the minors. No one’s gonna say 2-year-olds can have heroin. Five-year-olds--I mean, where do you make that demarcation? So I don’t think you can get to that point where you have a laissez-faire type of drug business without any profit in it. There, it, that would reduce, even with that, that would reduce some forms of crime but you’re still gonna have other crimes there because we aren’t addressing--

Burton: How about society? The long-term problem with our society? The number of people that are being addicted in our society. Would it go up or down if there was no profit? Would it go up or down if there was no profit?

Carr: Oh, I think it would go up if people were told that it was, that it was free, I think people would try it more and get addicted.

Burton: No, I didn’t say “free.”

Carr: I think people would try it more if it was available.

Burton: [Chuckles.] Well, I don't think that the people in Colombia would be planting coca if they couldn't make any money. And I don't think they’d be refining coca and heroin in Colombia if they couldn't make any money. And I don't think that Al Capone would’ve been the menace to society that he was if he couldn't sell alcohol on the black market--and he did--and we had a horrible, horrible crime problem. Now, the people that are producing drugs over in Southeast Asia and Southwest Asia and in Colombia and everyplace else--they don't do it because they like to do it. They don't fill those rooms full of money because they like to fill them full of money. They do it because they’re making money.

Carr: Exactly.

Burton: And the problem, in my opinion, is that at some point we to have to look at the overall picture, and the overall picture--and I’m not saying that there’s not gonna be people who’re addicted--and you’re gonna have to have education and rehabilitation and all of those things that you’re talking about--but one of the parts of the equation that has never been talked about--because politicians are afraid to talk about it.

This is my last committee hearing as Chairman. Last time! And I thought about this and thought about this and thought about this.

And one of the things that ought to be asked is: "What part of the equation are we leaving out?"

And, "Is it an important part of the equation?"

And that is--the profit in drugs.

Don't just talk about education. Don't just talk about eradication. Don't just talk about killing people like Escobar, who’s gonna be replaced by somebody else.

Let's talk about what would happen if we started addressing how to get the profit out of drugs.

Carr: I think that’s something that needs to be looked at, but I still question the idea that if you’re taking the profit out of drugs, that doesn’t mean you’re eliminating the demand for drugs. People are still gonna want heroin. So someone’s gonna produce it, and someone’s gonna sell it.

Burton: But the new addictions, the new addictions--

Carr: Pardon?

Burton: But the new addictions. Would they be diminished if you didn’t have someone trying to make money? If you didn’t have these people going from Philadelphia to New York or from Washington to New York--why would they drive from here to New York to get these drugs to sell ‘em if they couldn’t make any money?

Carr: Well, I think they’re gonna make money. I don’t know how you’re gonna eliminate them not making money.

Burton: Well, that’s part of the equation.

Carr: If they couldn’t make money, certainly they wouldn’t. They’d do something else.

Burton: That’s right, and that’s part of the equation that oughta be looked at, and we haven’t been looking at it

Carr: Oh, I think you’re right.

Burton: Ok, thank you. Ah, Miss Schakowsky, do you have a question?

Representative Jan Schakowsky (Democrat - Illinois): Mr. Chairman, I wanted to stay and hear your question because I want to thank you for raising it. I think we can’t be afraid to raise these kinds of questions when we discuss this whole issue of addiction and substance abuse, the attendant crime and law enforcement issues that go with it, and I think going forward, um, I’d welcome--under your leadership--that we explore fully this issue and follow your line of questioning.

You can watch this pivotal moment in streaming video from C-SPAN. Go one hour and 18 minutes into the file. (But hurry--who knows how long it'll stay up.)

Thanks to Denele Campbell, Executive Director of the Alliance for Reform of Drug Policy in Arkansas, Inc., for making a rough initial transcript of this exchange. And thanks to Jeff Rense for posting it.

This transcript was created by The Memory Hole based on the video of the hearing and has been triple-checked for accuracy. If you find a transcription error, please let me know.

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